If you want to sight and fire, you need to double that time to four seconds. Categories Video World War II. [48][pageneeded], By mid-1943, the Jumo 004A engine had passed several 100-hour tests, with a time between overhauls of 50 hours being achieved. This is an apolitical forum for discussions on the Axis nations and related topics hosted by the Axis History Factbook in cooperation with Christian Ankerstjernes Panzerworld and Christoph Awender's WW2 day by day. After seven Tempests were lost to flak at Hopsten in a week, the "Rat Scramble" was discontinued. They were like a sack of fleas. ME 262s went down to the following fighters that I know of: So if the 8th shot down ~139 jets, how many losses did they suffer from the jets? A throbbing in the wings as my cannon pounded briefly. He claimed two P-51Ds destroyed before suffering engine failure at high altitude. rev2023.7.3.43523. [citation needed], After Willy Messerschmitt's death in 1978, the former Me 262 pilot Hans Guido Mutke claimed to have exceeded Mach1 on 9 April 1945 in a Me 262 in a "straight-down" 90 dive. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. [130] Me 262 Werknummer 501241 was delivered to the Collings Foundation as White 1 of JG 7; this aircraft offered ride-along flights starting in 2008. 37 Me 262s of Jagdeschwder 7 (JG 7) intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. [34] Sweep, uncommon at the time, was added after the initial design of the aircraft. [133], Rstsatze may be applied to various sub-types of their respective aircraft type, denoted as a suffix in the form /Rn. Wings were produced in Germany's oldest motorway tunnel at Engelberg, to the west of Stuttgart. B-17 waist or turret gunners perhaps? The project had originated with a request by the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM, Ministry of Aviation) for a jet aircraft capable of one hour's endurance and a speed of at least 850km/h (530mph; 460kn). What was the toughest bomber in ww2 Avro Lancaster - UK [15][17], During April 1939, initial plans were drawn up and, following their submission in June 1939, the original design was very different from the aircraft that eventually entered service. Me 262 Losses and Kills - Axis History Forum by ChristopherPerrien 17 Apr 2003, 04:40, Post [36] Based on data from the AVA Gttingen and wind tunnel results, the inboard section's leading edge (between the nacelle and wing root) was later swept to the same angle as the outer panels, from the "V6" sixth prototype onward throughout volume production. The Kommando was then withdrawn for further flight training and a revision of combat tactics to optimise the Me262's strengths. Some were destroyed with a tactic known to the Tempest 135 Wing as the "Rat Scramble": Tempests on immediate alert took off when an Me 262 was reported airborne. [115], Large, heavily protected underground factories were constructed as with the partly-buried Weingut I complex for Jumo 004 jet engine production to take up production of the Me 262, safe from bomb attacks. All quotes listed here are from the Wiki article referenced above. Me-262 pilots claimed 14 B-17s and a P-51 shot down. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. you guys remember the piston-engine jet A/C kills thread we started and was never finsihed ..in aviation forum I believe. Whatever the tactics used, the sheer number of allied planes involved made the jet attacks almost irrelevant. These were kept flying until 1951,[4] when they were replaced in service by Soviet jet fighters. Please. Beaudrault shot down an Me 262 on Oct. 2, 1944 while piloting a P-47D Thunderbolt of the 365th Fighter Group, the " Hell Hawks ." An Me 262B-1a/U1 night fighter, with Neptun radar antenna on the nose and second seat for a radar operator, surrendered to the RAF at Schleswig in May 1945. CIOS XXIV-6. [94], As the Me 262A's pioneering Junkers Jumo 004 axial-flow jet engines needed careful nursing by their pilots, these jet aircraft were particularly vulnerable during takeoff and landing. U.S. gun camera footage of an American fighter firing. JG 7 claimed 450 allied/soviet A/C alone, hardly true .. Mmmmm, both I guess, just to see the numbers. This one was delivered to the Messerschmitt Foundation and was presented at the ILA airshow in 2006. During March, Me 262 fighter units were able, for the first time, to mount large-scale attacks on Allied bomber formations. Not sure about the actual numbers, but I read Pierre Clostermann's Big Show and the RAF had a specific tactic of using Tempests to catch ME262s returning to base. Which Allied aircraft scored the most air-to-air kills against the Me 262 in WWII? [109] After the war, the Royal Aircraft Establishment, at that time one of the leading institutions in high-speed research, re-tested the Me 262 to help with British attempts at exceeding Mach1. 4 Reasons why the first-ever jet fighter didn't make an impact on World [54], On 19 April 1944, Erprobungskommando 262 was formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, as a test unit (Jger Erprobungskommando Thierfelder, commanded by Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder)[3][56] to introduce the Me 262 into service and train a corps of pilots to fly it. The Me 262 wing had only a slight sweep, incorporated for trim (center of gravity) reasons and likely would have suffered structural failure due to divergence at high transonic speeds. [49] With the lower-quality steels used in the 004B, the engine required overhaul after just 25 hours for a metallurgical test on the turbine. The Spitfire? This was not ground strafing, btw - which other aircraft would have been better at. - Oberleutnant Franz Stigler, JV-44. In April 1941, Busemann proposed fitting a 35 swept wing (Pfeilflgel II, literally "arrow wing II") to the Me 262,[105] the same wing-sweep angle later used on both the American F-86 Sabre and Soviet Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 fighter jets. Two Spitfires were shot down and destroyed, with two more damaged. [119], After the end of the war, the Me 262 and other advanced German technologies were quickly swept up by the Soviets, British and Americans, as part of the USAAF's Operation Lusty. The German response was the construction of a "flak lane" of over 150 emplacements of the 20 mm Flakvierling quadruple autocannon batteries at Rheine-Hopsten to protect the approaches. After limited use during the fall, the Luftwaffe created several new Me 262 formations in the early months of 1945. The aircraft became operational with the Luftwaffe in mid-1944. Twenty-seven Allied aircraft were shot down, but 31 Me 262s, more than half the defending force, were lost. I believe Me-262's broke the sound barrier. It could chew through a wing of a B-17 Flying Fortress in one burst." any aces in these planes? [citation needed], Pilots soon learned that the Me 262 was quite maneuverable despite its high wing loading and lack of low-speed thrust, especially if attention was drawn to its effective maneuvering speeds. I would never be able to shoot one down like this. The Soviets ran similar tests. While there is some. Against multiple jet attackers, an effective defense was simply impossible. And your closing speed was still high and since you had to break away at 200 metres [220yd; 660ft] to avoid a collision, you only had two seconds firing time. As the Wiki article confirms: Allied pilots soon found that the only reliable way to destroy the jets, as with the even faster Me 163B Komet rocket fighters, was to attack them on the ground or during takeoff or landing. The Mosquito, one of the. The inclusion of full span automatic leading-edge slats,[Note 7] something of a "tradition" on Messerschmitt fighters dating back to the original Bf 109's outer wing slots of a similar type, helped increase the overall lift produced by the wing by as much as 35% in tight turns or at low speeds, greatly improving the aircraft's turn performance as well as its landing and takeoff characteristics. This problem faces any aircraft that approaches another from behind at much higher speed, as the slower aircraft in front can always pull a tighter turn, forcing the faster aircraft to overshoot. [74], Despite its deficiencies, the Me 262 clearly marked the beginning of the end of piston-engined aircraft as effective fighting machines. The unit was actually in existance in October of 44 with trials and errors and in December of 44 with 10 Me 262's the jet unit starting chasing P-38's and mosquito's, and by early 1945 it's focus was mainly the US four engine bomber. Early engines were so short-lived that they frequently needed replacement after only a single flight. Now, in two seconds, you can't sight. Soviet records show that they lost two Airacobras, one of them probably downed by Stehle, who would thus have scored the last Luftwaffe air victory of the war. The First Engagement Between a P-51 and an Me 262 and the Death of He referred to the Me 262 as "the most formidable aircraft of WW2." The Me 262 was shot down by a Bofors gun of B.11 Detachment of 2875 Squadron RAF Regiment at the RAF forward airfield of Helmond, near Eindhoven. A prominent Royal Navy test pilot, Captain Eric Brown, chief naval test pilot and commanding officer of the Captured Enemy Aircraft Flight Royal Aircraft Establishment, who tested the Me 262 noted that: This was a Blitzkrieg aircraft. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? On that date, some 60 Me 262s engaged more than 1,000 Allied bombers and fighters. by Maple 01 18 Apr 2003, 01:01, Post REAL Footage Of Red Tails Taking Down Me 262s - World War Wings Jet propulsion was explored by the Germans before the war even started, but engine and other problems prevented them from being widely used. Late-war Allied attacks on fuel supplies also reduced the aircraft's effectiveness. Me-262 only brought down during at landing? - Screens & AARs - Mudspike I knew a little about JV 44 from Galland's book But I did not know anything about other units and their pilots. ME 262s went down to the following fighters that I know of: Spitfire IX and XIV P47D They succeeded in strafing 65 Soviet lorries, after which the Me 262s intercepted low flying Il-2 Sturmoviks searching for German tanks. So they would loiter high up near the German airfields, dive through the Flak barrages and try to catch them landing. The way most of the accounts read they seem "Honest". London, 1946. p. 24. The British Hawker Tempest scored several kills against the new German jets, including the Messerschmitt Me 262. "[100] Some were destroyed with a tactic known to the Tempest-equipped No. [37], Testing showed that the Me 262 handled much better than previous fighters, such as the Bf 109 or Fw 190. It had a cruising speed of 465mph, which was faster than the top speed of most other fighters of the day. [43] Its retracting conventional tail wheel gear (similar to other contemporary piston-powered propeller aircraft), a feature shared with the first four Me 262 V-series airframes, caused its jet exhaust to deflect off the runway, with the wing's turbulence negating the effects of the elevators, and the first takeoff attempt was cut short. The great problem with it was it did not have dive brakes. [62][63] Despite orders to stay grounded, Nowotny chose to fly a mission against an enemy bomber formation flying some 9,100m (30,000ft) above, on 8 November 1944. From August 1946, a total of nine S-92s and three two-seater CS-92s were completed and test flown. [6] Several aircraft have survived on static display in museums. still the question is the reality of the LW jet fighter pilots claims. Another disadvantage that pioneering jet aircraft of the World War II era shared, was the high risk of compressor stall and if throttle movements were too rapid, the engine(s) could suffer a flameout. Some histories mistakenly include Kampfgeschwader 76 (KG 76) on the order of battle, but KG 76 did . by ChristopherPerrien 17 Apr 2003, 21:05, Post How many Me 262 were shot down? - Shabupc.com The projected HG II combined the low-drag canopy with a 35 wing sweep and a V-tail (butterfly tail). [24] Later in the design process, these were changed to AVL derivatives of NACA airfoils, the NACA 00011-0.825-35 being used at the root and the NACA 00009-1.1-40 at the tip. 130 017 damaged a Mosquito reconnaissance aircraft of No. [126][127] The F-86, designed by engineer Edgar Schmued, used a slat design based on the Me262's.[128]. The Me 262 was faster and more heavily armed than any Allied fighter, including the British jet-powered Gloster Meteor. will admit the last weeks taking on Soviet aircraft and armor with R4M's is quite scant there is practically nothing listed or very very little but JG 7 was quite active out of the Prague area fields. [32][30] Hitler rejected arguments that the aircraft would be more effective as a fighter against the Allied bombers destroying large parts of Germany and wanted it as a bomber for revenge attacks. [96][97] On 7 October 1944, Lt. Urban Drew of the 365th Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s that were taking off, while on the same day Lt. Col. Hubert Zemke, who had transferred to the Mustang equipped 479th Fighter Group, shot down what he thought was a Bf 109, only to have his gun camera film reveal that it may have been an Me 262. Does anyone here know how many were actually shot down in combat and or how many planes Me 262 pilots shotdown? Well over one hundred 262's were shot down, again, depending on who's sources you consider. On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. The Me 262 was shot down by a Bofors gun of B.11 Detachment of 2875 Squadron RAF Regiment at the RAF forward airfield of Helmond, near Eindhoven. Did the United States taxpayer fund the development of China's backbone fighter plane? by Erich 17 Apr 2003, 03:06, Post Why isn't Summer Solstice plus and minus 90 days the hottest in Northern Hemisphere? On levelling off, they were onekm astern (1,100yd) and overtaking the bombers at about 150km/h (93mph), well placed to attack them. [53] Fuel consumption was double the rate of typical twin-engine fighter aircraft of the era, which led to the installation of a low-fuel warning indicator in the cockpit that notified pilots when remaining fuel fell below 250L (55impgal; 66USgal). Frank Whittle concludes in his final assessment over the two engines: "it was in the quality of high temperature materials that the difference between German and British engines was most marked"[52], Operationally, carrying 2,000 litres (440 imperial gallons; 530 US gallons) of fuel in two 900-litre (200-imperial-gallon; 240-US-gallon) tanks, one each fore and aft of the cockpit; and a 200-litre (44-imperial-gallon; 53-US-gallon) ventral fuselage tank beneath,[Note 4] the Me 262 would have a total flight endurance of 60 to 90 minutes. On October 5 th, while on a high patrol near the Arnhem-Nijmegen area twelve Spitfire Mk IXs began their patrol at 1353 hrs. Once airborne, it could accelerate to speeds over 850km/h (530mph), about 150km/h (93mph) faster than any Allied fighter operational in the European Theater of Operations. When they were about 1.5km astern (0.93mi) and 450m (1,480ft) below the bombers, they pulled up sharply to reduce speed. German engineers introduced an automatic throttle regulator later in the war but it only partly alleviated the problem. The jet pilots claimed six Sturmoviks for the loss of three Messerschmitts. The one above me went into a steep right-hand turn, his pale blue underside standing out against the purple sky. [131] The third replica, a non-flyable Me 262 A-1c, was delivered to the Evergreen Aviation & Space Museum in May 2010. It also heavily influenced several designs, such as the Sukhoi Su-9 (1946) and Nakajima Kikka. [102][Note 9] The aim was to attack jets on their landing approach, when they were at their most vulnerable, travelling slowly, with flaps down and incapable of rapid acceleration. I do not have bomber losses as I have not examined all the 8th 9th BC MACR's. "According to Egyptian and British intelligence, a jet fighter of unknown type exploded in flight inside Israeli airspace during April 1950. I passed one that looked as if it was hanging motionless in the air (I am too fast!). And on 8 May, at around 4:00p.m. Oblt. Even on their biggest day, JG 7 flew 38 sorties, knocking down 14 US and British bombers and 2 fighters with a loss of 4 Me 262s. From the end of February to the end of March 1945, approximately sixty Me 262s were destroyed in attacks on Obertraubling and thirty at Leipheim;[38] the Neuburg jet plant itself was bombed on 19 March 1945. The Soviets, British and Americans wished to evaluate the technology, particularly the engines. The Tuskegee Airmen, flying their red-tailed P-51 Mustangs, fought back against the German jets. Me 262 production was delayed "because Hitler intervened in 1944 with an ill-timed order to convert the Me 262 to a fighter-bomber," stated the US Strategic Bombing Survey. You whack in at your bomber. He noted that it had a number of innovatory features, but in terms of performance, was a quantum jump ahead of other planes at the time. Most of Welter's claimed night kills were achieved by eye, even though Welter had tested a prototype Me 262 fitted with FuG 218 Neptun radar. [citation needed], The plane had, by contemporary standards, a high wing loading (294.0kg/m2, 60.2lbs/ft2) that required higher takeoff and landing speeds. Armament production within Germany was focused on more easily manufactured aircraft. Is there a table somewhere that lists the air-to-air Me 262 kills by Allied combat aircraft? "With the firepower concentrated in its nose and consisting of four 30 mm cannons, it was truly awesome. I don't know who William Green is but I doubt he is an authority as Gaalland is. . Many escorting P-51 pilots shot down Me-262s by simply doing a Split-S maneuver [ref: Roscoe Brown, Candelaria] . The Messerschmitt Me 262 Jet Fighter | Defense Media Network How can I specify different theory levels for different atoms in Gaussian? Anyone with a spare day to trawl through the book could compile an accurate list of Me 262s shot down. [15][16] Woldemar Voigt headed the design team, with Messerschmitt's chief of development, Robert Lusser, overseeing. In fact, Brown was one of three Tuskegee Airmen pilots to shoot down German jets on March 24, 1945, and he might have not been the first Black pilot to do so, either. Among his victims were Ju-87 dive bombers, He-111 bombers, Fw-190 and Bf-109 fighters, and even one of the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft the Me-262. There is a newer edition of the book, but I do not have it.). In January 2003, the American Me 262 Project, based in Everett, Washington, completed flight testing to allow the delivery of partially updated spec reproductions of several versions of the Me 262 including at least two B-1c two-seater variants, one A-1c single-seater and two "convertibles" that could be switched between the A-1c and B-1c configurations. The Hawker Tempest? Trials progressed at a slow pace; it was not until August 1944 that initial operational missions were flown against the Allies; the unit made claims for 19 Allied aircraft in exchange for six Me262s lost. [citation needed] Jagdverband 44 (JV 44) was another Me262 fighter unit, of squadron (Staffel) size given the low numbers of available personnel, formed in February 1945 by Lieutenant General Adolf Galland, who had recently been dismissed as Inspector of Fighters. The Me 262 appeared to have a higher critical Mach number than any American fighter. [65], On 26 November 1944, a Me 262A-2a Sturmvogel of III.Gruppe/KG 51 'Edelwei' based at Rheine-Hopsten Air Base near Osnabrck was the first confirmed ground-to-air kill of a jet combat aircraft. He initially designed the wing using NACA airfoils modified with an elliptical nose section. [27], During mid-1943, Adolf Hitler envisioned the Me 262 as a ground-attack/bomber aircraft rather than a defensive interceptor. Swing her round. Messerschmitt Me-262 Hit & Shot Down by U.S. Fighter - YouTube The Smithsonian's Me-262 has a victory band for a B-17 on this day. [41][42] This was almost nine months ahead of the British Gloster Meteor's first flight on 5 March 1943. In any operational sense, the Komet was a failure. [75], The Me 262's top ace[Note 6] was probably Hauptmann Franz Schall with 17 kills, including six four-engine bombers and ten P-51 Mustang fighters, although fighter ace Oberleutnant Kurt Welter claimed 25 Mosquitos and two four-engine bombers shot down by night and two further Mosquitos by day. Yet the belated appearance of the best fighter of the war could not prevent Germany's ultimate defeat. ), during training with the Luftwaffe, climbed a regular Me 262. @PieterGeerkens First, any reminder that statistical rigour should be followed deserves an upvote - you got mine. [39][40] When the BMW 003 engines were installed, the Jumo was retained for safety, which proved wise as both 003s failed during the first flight and the pilot had to land using the nose-mounted engine alone. Dan O'Connell's Me 262 Production log lists the fate of 1200 of the roughly 1500 Me 262s produced. Between May and August 1946, the aircraft completed eight flights, lasting four hours and forty minutes. The German Me 262 jet fighter returned the qualitative edge to Hitler's air force in the last days of the war, and German jets shot down a total of 63 bombers in the war's final months. by ChristopherPerrien 17 Apr 2003, 21:17, Post [121] The Me 262 had a shorter range than the Meteor and had less reliable engines. 542 Allied aircraft One of the most advanced aviation designs in operational use during World War II, the Me 262's roles included light bomber, reconnaissance and experimental night fighter versions. Me 262 combat kill ratio victories/losses? - Axis History Forum I would say Mustang's shot most down, because there were more of them escorting bombers and ground strafing. He stated that it was significantly faster than the fastest Spitfire (at the time) and with that speed "you could conduct combat totally on your own terms. 1. German 262's shot down - WW2Aircraft.net Forums As the two-seat trainer was largely unavailable, many pilots made their first jet flight in a single-seater without an instructor. Messerschmitt Me 262: How Were They Actually Shot Down in WWII? Why did few French and no Dutch pilots (but many Poles and Czechs) take part in the Battle of Britain? But there were actual air-to-air 262 kills: Major Walter Nowotny was assigned as commander [of Erprobungskommando 262 formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, the first operational 262 unit] after the death of Thierfelder in July 1944, and the unit redesignated Kommando Nowotny. The P-47 Thunderbolt? [15] The progression of the original design was delayed greatly by technical problems with the new jet engine. Flight testing of the first newly manufactured Me 262 A-1c (single-seat) variant (Werknummer 501244) was completed in August 2005. The Me 262 was like shooting ducks in a barrel on take off and landing. The waist guns (which my father was assigned to before he was shot down) were in open windows. [146] The Jumo 004 engines of the original are replaced by more reliable General Electric CJ610 engines. Do we know how many 262's were shot down? [18], The jet engine program was waylaid by a lack of funding, which was primarily due to a prevailing attitude amongst high-ranking officials that the conflict could be won easily with conventional aircraft. Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen. This commission helps us to maintain and improve the forum for the benefit of our users. I was coming from underneath, eye glued to the sight (pull her tighter!). His edict resulted in the development of (and concentration on) the Sturmvogel variant. no I meant the last victories of JG 7 were on the Ost front battling Soviet a/c in April and May. You are using an out of date browser. I'll try to dig it up. The P-51D Mustang? They did not intercept the jet, but instead flew towards the Me 262 and Ar 234 base at Hopsten air base. [58] Other sources state the aircraft was damaged during evasive manoeuvres and escaped. [104], Adolf Busemann had proposed swept wings as early as 1935; Messerschmitt researched the topic from 1940. What happened next is briefly described in No 126 Wing's Summary of Operations for that day: Safe to drive back home with torn ball joint boot?